Why content warnings are different on Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) than on Mastodon

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 05:29:04 -0600

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Many Mastodon users assume that everything in the Fediverse at least works just like Mastodon.

However, especially Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) work vastly differently from Mastodon; when it comes to content warnings, disturbingly so for Mastodon users.

Since this is targetted at Mastodon users, I'll explain it in a thread.

1/11

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #CW #CWs #ContentWarning #ContentWarnings #CWMeta #ContentWarningMeta

show all 30 comments

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 05:29:25 -0600

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

First of all, you'll notice that the replies in this thread aren't set to Unlisted. That's because I'm not on Mastodon. I'm on Hubzilla, and Hubzilla doesn't have an Unlisted setting.

Also, you may wonder why Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) weren't made more like Mastodon. That's because there was no Mastodon yet when Friendica (2010) and Hubzilla (2015) were made. And (streams) from 2021 is a direct descendant of Hubzilla.

2/11

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 05:29:36 -0600

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Now, to get to the point: Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) posts may not always have CWs when required by Mastodon standards. This has multiple reasons.

One is that they don't have a dedicated content warning field. They have never needed one. They have an optional add-on named "NSFW" that uses a configurable keyword list to hide sensitive posts behind content warnings. This has existed since long before Mastodon.

3/11

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 05:29:52 -0600

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

That is, Hubzilla and (streams) do have a text field that corresponds to Mastodon's "content warning" field. But on Hubzilla and (streams), it serves the purpose which it has served since it was created for StatusNet. It is for a summary. Not to be confused with the title.

But since this field is labelled "Summary" and not "Content Warning" or "CW", not everyone knows that it's the same as Mastodon's "content warning".

4/11

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 05:30:04 -0600

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Friendica, the oldest one of the three, doesn't even have that summary field. What is a "content warning" on Mastodon is an "abstract" on Friendica, and it is made in the post itself by putting it between the [abstract][/abstract] or [abstract=apub][/abstract] BBcode tags.

However, when you write a post, neither the existence of these tags nor their purpose is clear. So hardly anyone makes content warnings with them.

5/11

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 05:30:15 -0600

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Content warnings on replies or what's called "subtoots" on Mastodon are another issue. On Mastodon, you can either write your own CW for a reply, or if an earlier post has one, it's automatically taken over unless you manually remove it. This behaviour is hard-coded.

Friendica can do both, but again, only with BBcode, not with a dedicated text field. And while the latter is possible, it's optional and off by default.

6/11

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 05:30:26 -0600

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Hubzilla and (streams) can't do Mastodon CWs on replies/"subtoots" at all. That's because replies/"subtoots" aren't posts on Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams). They're something entirely different. They're comments like on a blog or Tumblr or Facebook.

Remember that Mastodon's CW field is named "summary" on Hubzilla and (streams). Now, why would someone want to add a summary to a blog comment?! That doesn't make sense, does it?

7/11

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 05:30:35 -0600

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

In addition, Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) don't use the same entry mask for posts and comments, in stark contrast to Mastodon. Instead, they have a post editor at the top of the stream, and they have one separate comment field under each post, just like a blog or Facebook or Tumblr. Thus, there is no entry field for a summary (or a Mastodon CW) for comments at all.

There simply is no way to add a Mastodon CW to a Hubzilla comment.

8/11

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 05:30:39 -0600

killer of px.mathias777.com

criiii@px.mathias777.com

hi wassup =)

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 05:30:44 -0600

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

As Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have it in their technology, their culture and their tradition to handle content warnings reader-side with text filters rather than writer-side in the summary field like Mastodon, there are no rules on any of their instances that enforce Mastodon-style CWs. Look for their rules all you want, you won't find any on CWs.

Reporting Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams) users for not using CWs is pointless.

9/11

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 05:30:57 -0600

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

If there's no CW on a post from Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams) where you feel there should be one, it may be disturbing to you as a Mastodon user.

But on Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams), it's perfectly normal and perfectly legal. And Mastodon-style CWs aren't and have never been part of their culture.

Also, the tools to make Mastodon-style CWs with may be unknown or, in the case of replies, not exist at all.

10/11

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 05:31:07 -0600

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

So missing CWs from Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams) aren't necessarily neglect or carelessness. It may simply be unclear how to make them, or it may be entirely impossible (see 8/11).

Keep this in mind if you feel like having Friendica, Hubzilla or (streams) users sanctioned for missing CWs. Because they would be just as justified to have you sanctioned for not providing hashtags or keywords to trigger their NSFW filters.

11/11

#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 05:36:25 -0600

killer of px.mathias777.com

criiii@px.mathias777.com

hi wassup =)

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 05:38:11 -0600 last edited: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 05:41:25 -0600

_jayrope

jrp@hub.kliklak.net

@Jupiter Rowland ja. It's a bit annoying, actually. There should be a way to summarize/cw at least, when AP is active. But probably better to have it in OFF-AP conversations, too. Hmm. I gave up on feature requests or bug reports in HZ. It happened before, that I was told a bug to be meant like that. Useless, somehow, made me feel like one shouldn't try talk to programmers, when you're not one of them.

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 12:03:08 -0600

Scott M. Stolz

scott@biztechtonics.net

@_jayrope

There should be a way to summarize/cw at least, when AP is active.

Mastodon is only one platform that uses ActivityPub; there are many others. And most other platforms that use ActivityPub do not use content warnings either.

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 12:08:49 -0600

Scott M. Stolz

scott@biztechtonics.net

What really needs to happen is that ActivityPub should create a field specifically for Content Warnings, and Mastodon should stop using the Summary field, which was never intended for Content Warnings.

That would allow other platforms to standardize on that. For example, Hubzilla's NSFW addon would be changed to be made compatible with Mastodon's Content Warning.

But that is only going to happen if there is a specific field for Content Warnings in ActivityPub that everyone agrees to use.

A tall order, I know, but that is the best solution long term.

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 13:30:58 -0600

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Scott M. Stolz The obvious downside of this would be that people would still get content warnings shoved into their faces which they themselves don't need. There are lots of complaints about this on Mastodon.

It'd be a whole lot easier if a) all Fediverse projects that don't have CW-generating filters yet introduce them, and b) the Fediverse as a whole switches to these plus keywords/hashtags. I mean, even Mastodon can generate CWs with filters now.

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 13:50:38 -0600 last edited: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 13:51:26 -0600

Witcraft (Hubzilla)

witcraft@hubzilla.fediversum.de

@Scott M. Stolz I'm often with you, but here, I'm not. If mastodon expects to maintain a specific protocol as required by Mastodon, it should define a protocol, and not use AP and expect all AP software to accomodate Mastodon requirements, instead of accomodating AP requirements and allow other implementations within AP spec.

I don"t think the lack of filter functions in Mastodon is a reason for the AP world to implement a field for CW, and require everyone to fill it...

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 14:02:16 -0600

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Witcraft (Hubzilla)

I don"t think the lack of filter functions in Mastodon is a reason for the AP world to implement a field for CW, and require everyone to fill it...

Actually, Mastodon seems to have better filters than Hubzilla in some regards.

Mastodon has expanded its filters with the ability to put posts behind a CW, much like our NSFW app, with version 4.0. And unlike NSFW, it can detect whole words.

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 17:10:46 -0600 last edited: Fri, 02 Feb 2024 00:50:27 -0600

Scott M. Stolz

scott@biztechtonics.net

@Witcraft (Hubzilla)

I don"t think the lack of filter functions in Mastodon is a reason for the AP world to implement a field for CW, and require everyone to fill it...

Who said everyone else has to fill it? We already have a situation where people on other platforms do not include content warnings. This at least frees up the summary field to be used for, well, summaries.

And many platforms already have a way to tag NSFW content. Ideally, there should be a standard way of sending that information via ActivityPub, even if the UI is different on each platform.

Thu, 01 Feb 2024 02:27:47 -0600

BonnettsBooks

BonnettsBooks@mastodonbooks.net

@jupiter_rowland
I've been federated for less than a year and really appreciate this insight into the history and tech. Thanks for sharing!

Fri, 02 Feb 2024 00:49:26 -0600

Witcraft (Hubzilla)

witcraft@hubzilla.fediversum.de

@Scott M. Stolz
I know - It's just interesting for me how one platform seemst to demand (probably the better word than "require") users of all others to comply with their self-empowered rules, instead of developing their platform themselves to fulfill the users' requirements...
I am just not used to that mind-set, but seem to be spoiled by Zot-/Nomad-ware, where user requirements are often anticipated, or at least reacted to, with own improvements ... :grin:

Fri, 02 Feb 2024 00:55:43 -0600

Witcraft (Hubzilla)

witcraft@hubzilla.fediversum.de

@Jupiter Rowland
So if their filters, why don't they just make it configurable if you want to be bothered with 500+ char posts (by expanding or ignoring functions), and expect tags for every eventuality instead of getting their act together and handling them themselves? I would not want to make myself that dependent on others - That is one major motivation for me to prefer Hubzilla and (streams).

Fri, 02 Feb 2024 01:06:20 -0600

Scott M. Stolz

scott@biztechtonics.net

In a way, I understand why they chose the summary field for content warnings. If someone writes a summary, there is usually enough information to let people know what the rest of the content is about. It's just that on Mastodon, they don't care about summaries, they care about content warnings, so they renamed the field.

Perhaps they should call the field "summary & content warning" so people understand that the field is sometimes used for more than a content warning.

So even in my proposed solution, Mastodon could continue to use the summary field for content warnings, but there still should be a universally supported way to indicate a NSFW or "sensitive content" post via ActivityPub. That way the NSFW addon in Hubzilla and other similar mechanisms on other platforms could communicate with Mastodon that something is "sensitive" even if it does not have a content warning, and Mastodon could respond appropriately.

Fri, 02 Feb 2024 01:54:08 -0600

Ema エマ

ema@utasansh.in

It's just interesting for me how one platform seemst to demand (probably the better word than "require") users of all others to comply with their self-empowered rules, instead of developing their platform themselves to fulfill the users' requirements...

I would like to hear @Jupiter Rowland saying that, and explicitly mention that the one platform is Mastodon.
I‘m still not sure if @Jupiter Rowland secretly thinks that way, just not saying it out loud, and want to reduct these demands ad absurdum by all his effort to instigate a „disguised“ debate, especially with his „polls“ which are so pointless because most of the offered answers to choose from ARE absurd.

No pun intended. I appreciate your effort which is huge.

Fri, 02 Feb 2024 03:23:38 -0600

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Witcraft (Hubzilla) We Hubzilla users let ourselves be thrown into the cold water with an out-right feature monster with a lacking UI and even more lacking documentation. Hubzilla is for die-hard geeks who can wrestle sich a monster. Most of us came either from Friendica which has never been that extremely better or from nowhere. Add to this that the most popular platform here is probably desktop Linux.

Mastodon users are vastly different, especially since the second wave of Twitter migration. Most of them are on phones, many are only on phones. Almost all came from Twitter. And what they sought was not something like Twitter, but more for geeks. What they sought was Twitter without Musk, but otherwise 100% Twitter. And Mastodon was promised to them to be just that.

Also, unlike us, Mastodon users were generally mollycoddled to no end from the very moment they got disgruntled with Twitter. They were always protected from the harsh reality of the Fediverse outside Mastodon and, in fact, from much of what makes Mastodon "harder" to use than Twitter.

We had to fire up a search engine to find a website that lists Hubzilla hubs, including whether sign-up is open or not. They weren't even told that Mastodon is decentralised. Instead, they were railroaded to mastodon.social or any other big instance, and decentralisation was kept away from them until they had settled in and made themselves comfortable.

They weren't told either that the Fediverse is more than just Mastodon. I think nobody even thought about what'd happen if they find that out because those who mollycoddled them and railroaded them onto Mastodon were and often still are barely aware of that themselves.

It usually took them months to even read about Pixelfed and PeerTube which are all over Mastodon. Okay, so there's an Instagram and a YouTube in the Fediverse, too. Neat. Okay, and WordPress connects to the Fediverse, too. Maybe neat. Okay, and there's actual Instagram by Facebook pushing into the Fediverse. Not so neat.

But even then, they did not know or even expect that there are other things in the Fediverse that do the same as Mastodon. And do it differently. It took them the odd month on top of that to learn about that.

Hubzilla users are kind of intrigued when someone from remote corners of the Fediverse connects to them. We're used to federating with anything and everything because that's a killer feature.

Mastodon users of about six months or less recoil from their phones or computers when they see a post with over 500 characters for the first time. This shouldn't even be possible! Mastodon can't do over 500 characters! Witchcraft! Black sorcery!!!

It gets worse if they see text formatting.

It gets even worse if they see someone being quoted or "quote-tweeted". It gets much worse if it's them who is being quoted or "quote-tweeted".

Again, their first reaction is that this shouldn't be possible, and that this has to be some black-hat hacker's work. This just has to be illegal.

If that offending post came from you, and they ask you what you've done, and you tell them you're on Hubzilla, their first understanding is that Hubzilla is the name of a Mastodon instance. You know, like Universeodon.

If you tell them it isn't, they'll assume that Hubzilla is a Mastodon fork.

Then you tell them it isn't that either. It's a wholly independent project that has nothing to do with Mastodon. And they'll wonder why someone would make something like Hubzilla if there's already Mastodon. Mind you, at this point, they still assume that Gargron has made Mastodon in 2022 as a reaction upon Musk's plans to take over Twitter, and everything else was made after that. Because "everybody knows" that Gargron invented a) Mastodon, b) ActivityPub and c) the Fediverse.

Because nobody has told them otherwise before they joined. Because that would have made things so overwhelmingly complicated that they would have noped away from Mastodon.

Well, and then you tell them that Hubzilla is, in fact, older than Mastodon. It literally existed before Mastodon was even made. And even with Mastodon being six years older than they think, Hubzilla is almost another whole year older than Mastodon. And Hubzilla is a fork of a fork of another Fediverse project, Friendica, that's almost six years older than Mastodon.

Tell you what: They might still refuse to accept that there has been something in the Fediverse before Mastodon. Okay, if Hubzilla is actually older than Mastodon, it must have been made to federate with Mastodon just recently. Hubzilla is a rude, reckless intruder in Mastodon's nice and cosy and fluffy Fediverse that refuses to adapt to Mastodon and its culture.

At this point, their assumption is still that the whole Fediverse was built around Mastodon.

And then you tell them that, no, Mastodon is the intruder. When Mastodon was launched, it immediately federated itself with Friendica and Hubzilla and GNU social because it spoke GNU social's language from the very beginning, and Friendica and Hubzilla spoke and still speak that language, too, only that all three did so already before Mastodon. Oh, and even when Mastodon adopted ActivityPub, Hubzilla had it first.

This will drive them further into defending Mastodon's alleged position as the supreme leader over the whole Fediverse to whom all others have to bow. Well, at least it's the best. Everything else has to be inferior. Or why else is Mastodon the biggest?

Well, that's because 99% of all Mastodon newbies were railroaded into it. They weren't given a choice between Fediverse projects. Either because whoever showed them the Fediverse didn't want to make matters too complicated and spare them of having to choose, or because whoever showed them the Fediverse only knew Mastodon, too. And it usually takes them months to find out the disturbing truth that the Fediverse is, in fact, not only Mastodon.

And since there's no easy-peasy, nomadic-identity-level way of moving from instance to instance and from project to project outside of Hubzilla and (streams), and since they don't want to get used to yet another project, and since Mastodon has the vastly best support for mobile apps (remember, everyone's on phones), they're stuck on Mastodon, demanding that Mastodon and their home instance introduce features that are readily available just about everywhere else in the Fediverse.

And since they're tendentially tech-illiterate and used to being mollycoddled, they demand all new Mastodon features have their personal preferences as the default settings.

Not to mention that they'll neither understand nor accept that other projects may have a different culture and have had it since times long before Mastodon.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon

Fri, 02 Feb 2024 03:37:57 -0600

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Scott M. Stolz

In a way, I understand why they chose the summary field for content warnings. If someone writes a summary, there is usually enough information to let people know what the rest of the content is about. It's just that on Mastodon, they don't care about summaries, they care about content warnings, so they renamed the field.

Mastodon actually chose to use the summary field for content warnings because of its hard 500-character cap. You don't need a summary for 500 characters, full stop. So they could also use that field for something else. Hey, why not use it for content warnings?

And they likely did so under the assumption that, even though Mastodon spoke a common language with GNU social, Friendica and Hubzilla, no Mastodon user would ever follow or be followed by any non-Mastodon user.

One part of the assumption was that Mastodon users wouldn't find out that there's a world outside Mastodon anyway. Mastodon wasn't targetted at geeks proficient enough in decentralised networking history to know GNU social. GNU social itself was probably deemed so small and so self-centred that nobody there would even think of following someone on Mastodon. Not if Mastodon isn't officialy being advertised as compatible with GNU social. Which it wasn't.

Now you might say that the federation-happy Friendica and Hubzilla users were just too eager to connect with Mastodon users to pin the "Federated with Mastodon" badge on them, right next to the badges for Diaspora*, GNU social and RSS.

But it's very likely that Gargron did not even know that Friendica and Hubzilla exist back then. Both were never advertised or promoted in any way that could have piqued public interest. They were largely made and maintained with an "If you build it, they'll come" mindset. And Hubzilla was brand-new when Mastodon was made, and its existence was only known to Mike's connections who paid close attention to his development posts.

And even if Gargron had known Friendica, he might not have known that Friendica speaks OStatus, much less that Friendica users tend to federate with everything that moved just because can.

Basically, Mastodon was designed to be federated within itself but effectively a walled garden towards the outside. And a walled garden doesn't have to take compatibility with anything that already exists into consideration.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon

Fri, 02 Feb 2024 22:06:28 -0600

Scott M. Stolz

scott@biztechtonics.net

@Jupiter Rowland

One part of the assumption was that Mastodon users wouldn't find out that there's a world outside Mastodon anyway.

If you are not on Mastodon and you comment on a Mastodon user's post, you show up in Mastodon as if you were a Mastodon user. When someone clicks on your name, they go to a Mastodon profile of you, not the profile on your server. Unless they click on "show more posts" they would never know you are not on Mastodon.

Tue, 06 Feb 2024 04:28:25 -0600

Cătă

petrescatraian@libranet.de

@Jupiter Rowland the friendica server I am on does insert CWs into replies, but I'm not sure if this is just a default for the users of this server or if this is a Friendica wide setting that was introduced at some point. But everything you wrote here is correct.

Because they would be just as justified to have you sanctioned for not providing hashtags or keywords to trigger their NSFW filters.

Yea, that is correct. I play with NSFW filters a lot to catch and collapse all the content I don't want to see in plain sight.

Instead, they have a post editor at the top of the stream, and they have one separate comment field under each post, just like a blog or Facebook or Tumblr.

That's right. And I pretty much think this is the way things should be: centralize the topic of a discussion into one place, so you can follow it more easily, separated from others. If you don't like / are not interested in it, just scroll further down to other discussions instead.

Tue, 06 Feb 2024 04:38:27 -0600 last edited: Tue, 06 Feb 2024 04:39:31 -0600

Luca Sironi

luca@sironi.tk

@petrescatraian @jupiter_rowland

I appreciate messages explaining the different behaviours of many fediverse software.

I'm somehow surprised, to hear that some people complain that much about.

In my limited experience, people i know is excited and curious when they saw a long blog post, or an embedded peertube video, or a pixelfed image, or just some markdown, appearing in their mastodon timelines, because boosted by someone.

Mon, 12 Feb 2024 05:12:20 -0600

Tejan Ausland

tejan@hubzilla.monster

@Luca Sironi

I'm somehow surprised, to hear that some people complain that much about.

There will always be complainers. They are usually a very vocal minority that want things done their way, and if they don't get their way, they make noise. They, unfortunately, have discovered that the squeaky wheel gets oil, as the saying goes.

It is good to get everyone's feedback, but you always have to remember that the loudest are usually not the majority. You can't assume that everyone else wants the same thing.